Architectural modeling

Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 29

So, after few chats with some users these days. Looks like a lot of people are interested in using Houdini as a procedural tool for architectural design.
Houdini is the perfect tool for complex building as well as for creating libraries of predefined and fully parametrable elements as assets.
Help to open the dialog between Houdini and the architectural world. What would you expect Houdini to do for you? What interesting features you use in AutoCAD or Rhino you think could be pushed to the next level with Houdini.

-d

Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

hi david, me as an architect, there are 3 aspect we are very much interested in and wish to explore more in houdini:

1. generative component:
http://www.bentley.com/en-US/Markets/Building/GenerativeComponents.htm
as in bentley or rhino, we are very much interested in generating similar parts with specified variation as it grows along the grid or any other objects. This can also happen in designing city as well as building designs.
I explore such capacity in houdini with copy SOP> stamp> variable (which i link to other modeling SOP)> value (which I add different functions like $PT... $BBX... rand()...noise()... int()...abs()...etc.

Unfortunately, the houdini help doesn't cover much in this aspect especially on the functions part, if anyone knows a better method or more sophisticated method, would love to share more.

also wish i could find more in the DVD procedural city, still waiting to arrive.

Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

2. L system

http://www.tropolism.com/2007/02/more_zaha_craziness.php#more
http://www.mathpuzzle.com/DaleWalton3.gif
http://www.theverymany.net/
http://www.theverymany.net/upload...Max_Test004_01_f_Pshop-705577.jpg
http://www.theverymany.net/upload...1228_SOM_Pavillon_05_b-710463.jpg

as an architect, we love to do fancy tiling, abstract or associated with natural pattern. However, the help in houdini has very limited resource on L-system. Hopefully we can find more at the DVD on houdini L-system.

Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

3. Implicit form.

http://www.arcspace.com/architects/ito/taichung/taichung.html
http://rhino3.de/album/math/index.shtml

I think houdini iso-surface has such capacity to input implicit functions, however, again, the houdini help has very limited information... being an architect, our knowledge of mathematics function are very limited. some indepth tutorials covering such aspect would be very helpful

thanks!

Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 29

Thanks A LOT !
These posts are extremely interesting: for our knowledge of your architrectural goals and for ideas of tutorials to develop in Houdini.

about generative components. That's all the copy sop ( not to say Houdini) is about! All of this is fully explained in the Cities DVD.

About Tiling:
An important pattern in tiling is Voronoi cells: as a matter of fact, this is also covered in the Cities DVD.
Tiling is a large subject... you can have different goals in tiling ( surface minimization, nice patterns like islamic ones... ).
About l-systems: l-system are for branching structures like trees, plants, lightning, cracks, bronchus, yet there exist « cellular l-system » which are totally different but allow some recursive tiling – like cellular division -( this will be covered in LsysDVD no4).

About implicit surfaces:
Actually there are not very good!! because they're.. implicit
1- this means they're of the form F(x,y,z)=0, and this is not the natural way for us ( for a human brain i mean) to represent surfaces as isosurfaces as the set of solutions of an equation.
2- They're not very precise, because the equation F(x,y,z)=0 has to be solved ( the set of solutions IS the surface), so Houdini solve the equation with numerical methods, so it's just an approximation + the resulting topology, especially the connection between vertices is not good.
( In math, all we care about is to turn implicit into explicit and to know where ( locally) we can re-write the equation F(x,y,z) into an explicit surface z=F(x,y) !... Implicit surfaces are rather a pb to solve and not a solution

as a matter of fact, that's not what is used in Rhino ( if i judge from the images you sent): what is used instead is parametric surfaces ( like Nurbs ( but with another parametrization, not only « rational »( NURBS = Non Uniform Rational Beta Splines) = (polynomial(x,y,z))/(polynomial(x,y,z), but with sin, cos, log).
This is achieved without any pbs with VEX or expressions ( and a little, tiny, knowledge of differential calculus, or let's say just math).

This raise the fundamental question, that you architects can answer: how do you want to have control over the surface: controlling a surface with CV or with evenly spaced isoparms(=curves) is very efficient and flexible and precise. That's why it is used so much.
Once again, i think the answer lies in either VEX/CHOPs or usual SOPs ( keeping the nurbs « type », but procedurally defining the isoparms for examples). Like « procedural stairs ».
What could be the other controls, or the constraints you would put on your surfaces, i have no idea: surface minimization, but this is WAY more complicated, and most of time, people used built-in functions ?
I wouldn't mind teaching differential calculus, but the most important thing is to find interesting applications!

Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 12

Hi david, thanks for the reply, very informative.

About tiling, I understand a number of software can do tilings in voronoi cells, however, some happens to be just shaders. For architectural purpose, it needs to be an object with a volume/solid lines for transferring to autocad for construction drawing purpose. http://www.theverymany.net/upload..._VT_test001_01_e_Pshop-742021.jpg
http://www.theverymany.net/upload...able_Test001_diagram01-706233.jpg
may be from a vex/shop to become a sop in Houdini?

Cellular l-system will be very useful for architects especially for urban planning, façade window design. Here are some references:
http://www.emergentarchitecture.com/projects.php?id=13
http://www.materialsystems.org/
I hope we will see the publication of LsysDVD no4, would it be very soon?

For implicit surfaces:
As I have very limited knowledge on math principles, I assume implicit function is written so as to formulate an explicit surface, when after several modification of the explicit surface had taken place, to see whether an explicit surface can be formulate into an equation. Anyway, you are right about achieve with vex/expressions, would be very useful to architect if there are some demonstrations of how to design such surface with Houdini, since these kind are applicable from furniture to building design, also as in tai chung the opera house to be constructed in Taiwan.
http://www.theverymany.net/upload.../070104_VARIABLES_L_03-729507.jpg
http://www.theverymany.net/upload...1228_SOM_Pavillon_05_b-710463.jpg
http://www.arcspace.com/architects/ito/taichung/taichung.html

for surface control: I think many use rhino for manipulation of prefer curvature, then transfer to autocad for precise dimensioning. I think the level of control in rhino would be sufficient for design, since we would do the final dimensioning in autocad for construction.
However, if we can set the degree of beveling/dimension of extrusion/the precise offsetting of isoparms/numerically setting the degree of curvature would be an ideal, and architects do many repetitions, is best to have more control in repetition with minor variations. Anyway, I think we are already used to CV control over the curvature we like.

Regarding the surface minimization would not be an issue, since there are many factors governing the construction process, we architects are more attracted to the looks than the economics.

I hope this information can help a bit, its best to consult with major corporate architectural firm since they are the one who produce and construct the most. One of the firm SOM http://www.som.com/opener.cfm they use rhino for design then autocad/revit for construction drawings.

Anyway, i would input more once i receive the DVD on l-system & procedural cities.

cheers

Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 6

This is a very nice topic.

Well I’m a newB in Houdini, but I’m trying to catch up as fastest I can!
As all the fine links by “aspect” is showing procedural design is one of the hottest topics of popular architecture today.

For me as Architect, becoming REAL is the most important part. How my dynamic design in my computer is becoming REAL and physical. Fore that I need to be more in charge of deciding the path of manufacturing to control the costs of the building. It’s easy to design without having to build it;o)

What would be nice is how to work and design in Houdini parallel with other software such as Rhino. Import and export is the most critical part as I can see! No doubt Houdini is the master as making things procedural and complex but in detail Rhino is needed for making it REAL when it comes to buildings and smaller scale, City planning and Urban design is not a problem.

This is an interesting project: ParaCloud http://www.paracloud.com/ showing how MS excel is boosting Rhino to a powerful parametric design tool. But the workflow and the workarounds are to complex to be universal tool for an office! The software is just in beta version right now.

I can imagine the combination of Houdini and Rhino would be an ultimate combination, if import and export would be explored.

Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 29

Thanks a lot for your replies! Sorry i was on vacation.

About the path from idea to REAL. I totally believe that Rhino or AutoCad is closer to architectural needs, although i don't know how exactly .

Of course, Houdini being a multi-purpose tool, it has not been especially designed to fit architectural needs, and is more about conception. You cannot really blame him for that Smile

I think the best pipeline would be to keepAutocad (or Rhino) for the end of the process because it already has the proper tools for "REAL" export and that architects are more used to work with it. So Houdini would enter in the scene where Rhino leaves off in terms of complexity...
That really adds to my idea that we must release one or several other DVDs about procedural modeling, more NURBS-oriented and more buildings-oriented ( more than city-oriented).

But first i propose to start a little brainstorming area here to help Houdini meet architecture:

where i see Houdini can help is ALSO

-with its NON-DESTRUCTIVE workflow ( which goes with the procedural paradigm, but which
is NOT the same: it's not a matter of "multiplying" geometry anymore but a matter of working with the network ( like "the stack" but non-linear!) of your operations.
This means than you can change a parameter, for example the size of your window, and the whole result (like the whole building) or a geometry somewhere else updates.
I've played a lot with "procedural stairs" that automatically adapt to your terrain.
I imagine this is very interesting for architecture because you always have to deal with little modifications and constraints where you don't want to redesign everything and elements that work in relation with each other. For example:
a procedural stair which would be automatically modified if you change the size of your room.
The architectural elements "send info one to each other", so they need to
be thought and designed in interdependance.
Working with some modules ( rooms, window, stairs, roofs whatever)
who "speak" one with each other is very useful for the conceptual side of architecture
( make your space functional, dealing with ecological constraints, orientation, access ). I've had long discussions with a friend architect on that!

But it's also useful for the practical side: i want to change
one parameter but i want to have the same relation between elements.
I mean it can be turned into an "architectural paradigm"

-One great thing in Houdini, which can make me think it's also appropriate tool for the REAL part is that Houdini has a powerful managements of groups ( groups of geometric primitives):
for example ( lets suppose a tile of M m2 costs N dollars), you can create a group with all the tiles and have Houdini interactively and procedurally computing the total expense ( better than Excel sheets!), then you can send this in CHOPs ( the " abstract MATH engine") and make Houdini procedurally create additional elements if the price < certain value.
( you send your constraints back in the network). This is of course the minimum you can do.

Or you have builded several types of windows, and the proprietary says: too expensive! then you just
switch to another type of window in 1 click
( completely parametrable) and you immediately get the result!

Developing Houdini for architecture sounds like an incredibly interesting project, but we need to know more on which scale architects work. Some work on part of cities, some work on buildings, some work on ergonomy and design, on the "artistic side".. some work on standard flats etc!

-d

Joined: 16 Apr 2007 Posts: 6

Hi David,

I’ll try to put some more info into this forum to fill the gaps, sorry for the spread of info.

First of all I have to congratulate you; I have just received your DVD on procedural cities. Fantastic DVD, I wish I hade it for 4-years ago when I did my Master at the architect school. At that time I made a software prototype my self to work with a dynamic model of a city. With the knowledge I have today I could do much more... But it’s not to late;o)

Well I have to say your understanding of REAL is very precise and I’m impressed. The kind of tools you are talking about is really nice and in a near future every architect (at least her in DK) has to use it. New DK-government directions from 1.st of Jan 2007 are that all public buildings must be developed as a digital-project. This means that there is a BIB standard made fore how to communicate architectural projects digitaly.

Here is some Digital project tools/software,

Graphisoft Archicad
http://www.graphisoft.com/products/archicad/ac10/
Not procedural but it works with components and it gives you a spread sheet where you can calculate your data in form of door, window and so on…

Autodesk REVIT new revolution in CAD!
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/serv...ndex?siteID=123112&id=3781831

Autodesk REVIT, is one of the tools which will probably be a new standard here in DK. What REVIT dose is exactly what you are describing with calculating the cost, objects and much more at the same time you are designing a project, with the advantage of being CAD-DWG standard. The workflow is kind of procedural and component based. You are binding your elements to your geometry and by scaling, stretching and arraying your walls you get the building to grow, so on and so forth… (there is more to it…)

I think when it comes to it; HOUDINI is a fantastic tool to use for sketching developing and expanding your ideas in a more freeform and experimental way. Maybe programmatic, diagrammatic if you would like to call it, relations and the conceptual ideas could be explored.
I love the way HOUDINI works and the procedural modeling is fantastic. Of course there is always advantages and disadvantages in software packages, when it comes to it at the end it’s the man behind the computer is important and the tools are just tools… what you make with it is what it counts;o)

I’m really interested in exploring HOUDINI to its limits (even it’s hard to imagine HOUDIN could have any limits;o)

Just let me know if I can be to any help to describe what HOUDINI for architects could evolve into.

I have a wish list which is not so different from "aspect" wishes, I’ll try to gather some more info about it and post them here.

For now I leave it with great thanks for the DVD tutorial.
//

Joined: 15 Nov 2006 Posts: 29

Very very interesting, thanks.

First, really it's never too late.. Plus, if you're « tech-minded », you'll certainly find Houdini easier to learn. I guarantee it!
because in Houdini, you KNOW what you're doing, and it does exactly what you think it does. That's the magic of operators. This means you don't have much pre-built effects like in Maya, for example where you click in a menu full of options, but you don't know how it's internally. The internal representation of the 3d workflow is the same as the external representation, there's no gap between!

REVIT seems to be very close to Houdini indeed, and interestingly to the ideas i presented ( the « tile example », their « bidirectional associativity », the library of components etc). I don't know if Houdini would be redundant with it
I continue on my ideas (that need to evolve of course), but this is how i see the things.
Houdini is very powerful but in your project you start from scratch and you can go in soo many different directions that you have to pre-organize your stuff and workflow, to work.Aa little bit like programming .So it has pros and cons, ( but at a high level enough where you don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime).
You have total control but on the other hand you have to specify everything the first time.

What i think is incredibly useful is assets: ( the DVD gives an example so i let the DVD explain): where you can encapsulate all your functionality in 1 customizable operator ( which represent ALL the building you're working on f.ex), then you easily create your interface with only the interesting parameters, update your textures etc. Like a big macro for your project that everybody can interactively play with ( without having to take care of what's underneath – Excatly like in object oriented programming)!
It depends on the flexibility you want to get and the time you spend on it.
What is missing in Houdini for the moment is things like excel sheets management for example but H9 new python integration may change this.
I will keep on posting ideas.

About Houdini limits: EVERYDAY i think i've just found the limits and then Houdini surprises me again.
-d